Where have you played this week? Would you recommend it? Give us an honest appraisal in the comments section below.
Local Course Conditions: Up To 8-02-2012
by Mo'Golf | May 5, 2012 | Mo' Golf, Rico's Rants, The Mouth, The Scrambler | 37 comments
37 Comments
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Have played Harvest Hill and Hickory Stick last week.
I am a member of Harvest Hill. Great course and in great shape right now.
They are starting to run into a problem with slow play though. It took 5 hours for me to complete a round last week. The course is hard and you have guys playing from tees that they have no business playing from.
They are going to need to address this. It is becoming a problem.
Hickory Stick, very dry. Fairways were hard already. I might be one of the only guys who don’t care for the place all that much.
Love the front 9 the back 9 is a little too gimicky for me.
Played Harvest Hill on Saturday 5/19 . Fabulous shape! One of the best courses around here in my opinion.
Harvest Hill is in great shape. Greens rolling smooth and fast and so are the fairways.
Sheridan is in really nice shape too. It’s playing tough. The fairways are giving yardage on the roll, but keep it in the fairway because the rough is punishing. Greens are challenging because there’s a lot of poa popping and deflecting the putts as they slow at the cup. Speed on the greens is essential. A nice early season challenge.
In defense of slow play at Harvest Hill, (full disclosure, I work there). A golf course doesn’t make the course slow, people make the course slow. Have I played some long rounds there this year? Absolutely, and it frustrates the heck out of me. Let me clarify even further, MEN make the golf course slow. If you are not a single digit handicapper, please play the silver tees. The starter recites his script to the groups at the tee, and recommends the silver, the ranger suggests their enjoyment level might be higher at the silvers. But those ego’s just won’t let them go to the silvers. One reply I overheard today was, “I paid my money, I’ll play where ever the f— I want.” (sound like someone having fun to you?) So with that kind of etiquette and courtesy, can we expect them to keep on pace with the group in front of them. The ladies don’t play the wrong tee box. Its not ladies holding up the course at 9am on a Sunday. Harvest Hill is a difficult course from any tee box, even the junior tee. Don’t let the yardage fool you, the course plays much harder than the yardage dictates. Unless you shoot par on a pretty regular basis, play the silver tees. You will lose less golf balls, have more fun, and everyone behind you will have more fun too.
I totally agree with your accessment Kathy. I started playing golf in my late teens. I am 48 now. I have a 6.7 handicap and I struggle with the gold tees let alone the black. I think the best I have done from there is 83.
When I strarted people did not have the stupidy (lack of a better term) to act like that.
Golf is a joke now. You have way to many weekend warriors out there trying to act like tour stars.
It ruins the game for everybody. I myself have given thought to moving up to the silver’s for good.
Gret point.
I totally agree with your accessment Kathy. I started playing golf in my late teens. I am 48 now. I have a 6.7 handicap and I struggle with the gold tees let alone the black. I think the best I have done from there is 83.
When I strarted people did not have the stupidy (lack of a better term) to act like that.
Golf is a joke now. You have way to many weekend warriors out there trying to act like tour stars.
It ruins the game for everybody. I myself have given thought to moving up to the silver’s for good.
Great point.
People not understanding how to utilize a golf cart for faster play also make the course slow!! Get some exercise and carry your clubs.
All sorts of reasons for slow play. The one that annoys me the most are the Golfers who think the game is finding lost golf balls and going to the tee box just starts the process of losing one. try scavenger hunting instead!!!!
I am probably going to make some guys mad. I do not mean this as a disrespect. I realize their are guys here who love the place.
I played Diamond Hawk this past week. First time and last. I hated the place. The course is way to tricked up for me. I really can’t put it in to words.
Whoever designed this place really dropped the ball and has no idea how to design a fair but decent test of golf.
If you are going to place hazards all over the place you have to give people a out somewhere on a hole.
Wheather it be a tough driving course then you need to have it get somewhat easier on your second shots.
Or the other way around, If you give some decent driving area then make the course tougher as you approach the greens.
Look at the Nicklaus design this past week. Very tough but decent driving areas. It got tougher as you got closer. fair but tough.
Diamond Hawk is a terrible design. Not only that but half the greens had at least 25 pitch marks in them that were not repaired.
I myself will never set foot on that course again.
It is just poorly designed. Stick with Harvest Hill or Ivy Ridge.
Even Arrowhead which has went down hill fast as far as conditions is a good but fair test of golf.
Good luck to the members of that place. If you can play well there you get my respect. You would need to be one hellva of a player.
I felt by the way the same about Fox Valley and thru the last 5 years or so, talking to different guys I am not alone at all with that opinion.
Tim,
It will come as ironic when you learn that the same design firm (Hurdzan-Fry from Columbus, Ohio) did both Harvest Hill and Diamond Hawk, within a year of each other. Different lead architects, but the same firm/methodology.
What you have to remember is this: the courses you like (Ivy and Harvest) benefited from having huge amounts of land, where the architect could do whatever he/she wanted in terms of laying out the course. In contrast, both Fox and Diamond are built over restricted pieces of land. I consider Diamond to be a miracle of near-urban golf. For the plot of land that it is on, the course is extremely playable.
Whenever my high school golf teams play at Diamond Hawk, I tell them to be smart and use driver only if they are hitting it well. Diamond allows all types of shots (runners, aerial, mid-trajectory) into the greens and creativity around it. I am a fan of all the courses you mentioned, for different reasons.
–Mo’ Golf
Here is a good post for you to read, to learn more about Diamond Hawk: http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/diamond-hawk-golf-course-then-now/
I can understand the amount of work that was involved.
It does not change my opinion of the course. I hated it and will not return.
Like I said though, this is a personal opinion.
I am partial to Harvest, probably because I am a member there.
Diamond Hawk just does not fit my eye at all. I think that par 3 third is one of the most unfair holes on the course.
There is nowhere to go on it.
I played it at 216, 30 mile an hour wind right in my face. I suspect when the wind blows that is the case on that hole most times.
Of course I am going to come up short. You can’t hit it left or right as it is. So if you play it short and take your chances with a wedge in from 20 yards. Which in my opinion is the only play there with that amount of wind there then you can’t throw a bunker in there 20 yards short.
Every hole needs a bail somewhere. It is a poor designed hole.
Of course it is my opinion. I can respect the place for the effort it took and the members who play there but I do not like the course.
Interisting debate re: Diamond Hawk and Harvest Hill. my 2 cents on the matter, Harvest is in better shape, but Diamond Hawk has the better par 3s including the 3rd hole. Glen Oak better than both places.
What makes a good par three?
Why do you think Diamond Hawk has better par threes?
Is it there length? I think you can have a well designed short par three as well as a long one.
Bunkers, water or a nice sloping green are just as good a defense for a well designed short par three.
It is too bad in general that golf is just become about length.
I blame that on the PGA Tour and club makers. Everything is designed around length.
I play most courses from the shorter tees. I only average 250 off the tee. I play the game in the fairway though. I care more about direction than length.
I am close to a three handicap from the shorter tees. The longer ones I am more like a 10.
That is why I can’t really play any local tournaments. The tees are always in the back. I am just not long enough to compete from there.
I enjoy shorter courses that provide challenge in different forms.
Putting, chipping and inventing shots are what I like.
Getting back to the Diamond Hawk debate. I just don’t like the layout.
I agree with you though, Glenn Oak is still a top layout and provides fair but good challenge from any tees.
Maybe I should play Diamond Hawk from the upper tees.
I might change my opinion. I was forced to play from the back due to a tournament.
I enjoy the game much better playing at tees that are in my wheelhouse.
I would love to post the question, What tees do most people out there play from? If you play the tips, why?
My thing is, when I start playing to a scratch or plus handicap then I will move back.
If you are shooting 90’s from the back tees, I ask why you play them?
When I think of Par 3’s, the varying lengths make a good grouping of Par 3. Diamond Hawk has the 2 long par 3’s (3rd and17 th) , a medium length (6th) and one short one (13th). Harvest has 5, 7 and 12 all similar in length and 15th I think a medium length one. All nice holes, just prefer the DH group, love HH though, great course!!!
Mo’ Knows…something. I got a chance to sorta play three courses over the past two days. I was at Spruce Ridge (Arcade) on Saturday and Terry Hills (Batavia) and Arrowhead (Akron) on Sunday, all for photo shoots. I’ll put the photos up with course reviews soon, but what I can say is this: 9 or 18 or 27 holes at those three courses is money well spent. All three courses are in great shape and were pretty close to packed. I was jealous of the lasses and laddies that were playing the game that I was photographing!
are you and ron (i think) still playing new courses? do you remember bedrock? tou should see it now—-come out and play a free round—-chuck—8188800
I played Glenn Oak yesterday.
I always loved the course. I have not played it in many years.
It was in good condition. The bunkers were terrible most of them were unraked. There were a ton of footprints in most of them.
Two things I hate on a golf course. Lazy people who do not fix divots or rake there mess in a bunker.
Very nice course with decent greens. Overall I give it a B- for condition.
Now, let me get on my soap box again. 5 and 1 half hour round. This is the very reason I stopped playing there. I am just not understanding people nowadays. There was a group of guys ahead of us who could not hit the ball at all. Most of them would take 3 or 4 shots to get to the fairway. If they did hit it they spent 5 minutes looking for there balls in trees.
I know this is not the thread for this but I don’t know where else to post this.
Why are these guys out there? Why do people do this to themselves and others? They can’t possible enjoy this. 3 out of the 4 shot a min. 112
When I was growing up I never set foot on these types of courses. I played 1,000 rounds at caz until I learned how to play. Then I moved up to Elma meadows. This is what I did. I would not embarass myself or ruin others day. Which after waiting 7 minutes on every tee pretty much ruined my day.
I saw one kid in the ranger cart. Drove right past them like they were not there. The next group ahead of them was 3 holes ahead.
I don’t care how this sounds but if you can’t keep it moving you should be removed from the course or made to wait until groups behind are allowed to pass. If you have doubled par and still not in the cup, pick up.
Go to a golf course that suit your skill level. Be honest with yourself. There is no shame in that. it would make a better experience for yourself and others who do not have to watch you or wait behind you.
I will not be returning there anytime soon.
I had the opportunity to get to Chestnut Hill and Terry Hills recently. I could not get over the beautiful conditions. We’re not talking Augusta-fication, mind you, since the courses were rolling well (not saturated with water.) As the year goes by and the reviews pile up, I’ll give you more insight into courses I’ve seen.
Back to Diamond Hawk. I like that course very much; there is a creative flair to the design. The first few holes would be improved by clearing out the brush, weeds and bushes in the trees so that it would be easier to find balls, and perhaps play recovery shots. But I think that the layout rewards good planning. It also has a “not created by bulldozer” feel, unlike, say, Glen Oak. And I enjoy an occasional cross bunker.
I think that it is a fine layout if played from the appropriate tees.
Busy week for once for me…Tuesday was Niagara Falls Country Club…course is rounding into idyllic shape for Porter Cup. Powers that be have figured out that fast and firm (thanks to the weather) is as much a defense as thick and lush. Thursday was Cherry Hill Club~again in top shape for Member-Guest. Ian Andrew renovated the course 2-3 years ago and breathed life into the old gem. Friday was Diamond Hawk~in my estimation, the most strategic of our public courses. This course is the great equalizer if your opponent is a long driver. Saturday was a stolen round over the North nine at Willowbrook…hadn’t been there in a while. Terrific nine…more teeth and more playable than the other two, homespun nines.
Played at Arrowhead Saturday. This course is done. They have given up on it.
The fairways area joke, hard as dirt, weeds, no grass in alot of areas on the fairways.
Bunkers were unkept. Greens were very slow.
It is a shame because this could have been one of the top tournament courses in the area. Some guys have told me they are closing there doors at the end of the year.
It is sad to see. Arrowhead was a top layout and a very good course when it was being taken care of.
I hope somebody buys it and does the right thing with it.
This web site must get a lot of sponsor money from Harvest Hill, or have a lot of its members/players here. I’m part of a once-a-week group that plays a different course every week. We try and hit 20 different courses over the course of the season, and HH is always one of them. But it’s nothing special, and not having any sort of clubhouse is a huge downer.
Mark,
Harvest Hill is a sponsor of BuffaloGolfer.Com, but in no way greater than any of the other companies that sponsor the site. My claim has always been that the par three holes at Harvest are sufficient but not memorable; the par four holes are solid to excellent and the par five holes are the best architecturally, public or private, in western New York. I’ll disagree and say that it is something special. Thank you for your comment. Check back often and say what’s on your mind.
I should put a disclaimer that my group only ever golfs on weekday afternoons (we’re lucky, for various reasons, to be able to get out then, which I know is not an option for many). We can’t stand the weekend slow play, plus you get some nice rate discounts later in the afternoon.
When combining quality of course, playability for a bogey golfer, clubhouse, and cost, 4 courses come to mind for me: Ivy Ridge, Terry Hills, Willodell, Thundering Waters. There are lots of other good courses, and our goal is to hit 20 different ones each year, but if I could only play 4, those would be the 4 I pick.
I played Dande Farms this week. This is a once-a-year course for my group, and in past hot summers, this course had a burned-out feeling. Surprisingly, I found the course to be in decent shape. It’s not a waste of time to play here.
I’m saddend to read Tim’s comments about Arrowhead above. We played that course in May and it was fine. Our past experience is sometimes this course has been in great shape, and then sometimes like what Tim said. It’s too bad it’s gone to pot as this summer has dragged out. Arrowhead has had a lot of trouble since its inception trying to figure out its identity…I hope it survives.
A) If I had a nickel for each of the guys over the years that have made the claim “they’re closing their doors…” I’d be the King of Nickel City. When you see a “Closed” sign on the gate, the place is closed.
B) I agree with Mark on Arrowhead (also a sponsor of BuffaloGolfer.Com) as the round that I played there was over a well-conditioned course. I’ll snoop around there soon.
C) Mark, you still like Thundering Waters after they tore up the course? I haven’t been there for a few years, so I’ll have to take your word for it. I always loved the layout.
We’ve played Thundering Waters every year since it opened, minus its first year. This year we played it in June. Put aside the ‘housing construction zone’ feel you get when entering the place, which you don’t notice once on the course. And if you played the original layout, try and forget that and take the existing, shorter layout at face value. What you have left is still a stunningly-in-great-shape course (best of any course I played this year so far), and a beautiful layout. I like a challenging course that will eat you up if playing bad, but a bogey golfer can score well on if playing well. I got a weekday late afternoon $42 18-hole rate, which is a steal. My only real complaint was how small the clubhouse was.
Has anyone played the town of hamburg course this year? I think it is called 18 mile creek this year. I remember that being a nice 9 hole course, but when it became 18, they ruined a couple of the original 9 holes, and put in 9 mostly-garbage (and in terrible shape) new holes. I last went there 3 years ago. I was wondering if it’s any better now, with the name change and all.
I have not piped up for a bit.
So here are some of the courses I have played this past month.
1-A friend of mine and I got curious and started wondering how ICC was. We grew up on that course while learning to golf, 25 years ago.
We decided to go. It was a shame what the course has turned into. It was the worst conditioned course I have played all year. Worse than Arrowhead and that was bad.
There is nothing good to say about it. The greens were very slow. there were no fairways. It was basically dirt. I can understand the dry summer and the grass being burnt out but there was no grass at all. That tells me this was going on before the dry summer.
It was fun in my youth but I will never return.
2- Played Chestnut Hill. The course was nice. They make the effort to keep it in good shape. It is not a overly tough course but it is nice. Good greens, Decent fairways, not the best but after ICC this place looked like Augusta to me. Nice friendly staff. Overall nice experience.
3- Peninsula Lakes. This place is a gem. I recommend it highly. It is one of my favorite courses period. Everything is top notch. Courses condition is great. Staff and atmosphere is top notch. It did not disappoint. I recommend it highly.
Of course I played my usual weekly 18 at Harvest. It is maintaining. No need to comment further on Harvest. It has been commented on enough.
Thanks for the updates, Tim. Glad you get out for a good bit of golf. Shame to hear about ICC; there is a lot of competition along the Niagara Peninsula these days, a lot of Toronto money that hurts the local course owners. Back in the day, when ICC was the only game in town, it shared the play with Whirlpool for those “special” trips to Ontario. Not the case anymore, as evidenced by your comment on Pen Lakes.
One question: is course conditioning the most important characteristic of an enjoyable round of golf for you? We’re always interested in finding out what motivates our readers to return to a course.
I would say yes. Course condition is very important to me. The layout though and how it fits my eye are also important.
I have never been a big fan of tree lined golf courses. I like a more links style type of play. Courses that have very narrow driving areas I do not like at all.
Take Fox Valley for example. Very nice conditioned course but I hate the front nine. I would never return there. I could have many times but have turned down invites because I do not like the course.
Same with Diamond Hawk. I just do not like the layout. Nice course. It produces some good players but it does not fit my eye at all.
The only way I play tree lines courses is if the driving areas are wide enough so I am not penalized for being 4 yards off the fairway.
Byrncliff is a decent example for me. Has trees but has enough room to drive the ball.
So layout is very important to me.
Courses I really like.
Penn lakes
Harvest Hill
Ivy Ridge
Arrowhead (Horrible shape) so I won’t play there again. I like the layout though.
Hickory Stick
So I would say it is 50/50 mix of layout and condition.
I also try to stay in the 6300 to 6700 range. Most courses offer options though for that.
I only average 250 max off the tee so 7,000 yards is out of the question for me.
Another factor for my group, and I would think many, is cost…and that’s where courses like Pen Lakes or Grand Niagara fall short. We only golf weekday afternoons…when you generally can get the best deals…and you can’t get a tee time at either place under $70. I can get a $35 rate at Ivy Ridge…would I rather play there twice, or PL / GN once? To me, the answer is obvious.
I was on vaca last week so I hit 2 courses by myself that I never played and wanted to scope out. Niagara County was one. Boring layout…bad conditions…only redeeming value is it was only $17 to walk. If you’re in this area, definitely drive the extra few miles north to Willow Brook or Oak Run.
Kis N Greens was another. This course has a layout that has potential…definitely some interesting and different-looking holes. And cost was cheap…$20. But condition was not good, and it had a non-existent clubhouse. I can see me trying this course again in 2-3 years, but not anytime soon.
I then went out with my group to Ivy Ridge and was very happy to be back on a ‘real’ course again. 🙂
Since I don’t play much other golf than Harvest Hill being that I have a season pass cost does not enter into it for me. I don’t play many times outside my home course.
I look at it as a treat. If I take the time to go somewhere else I feel it is a waste of time to not go top of the line to a point.
I want it to be a worth while experience. I am willing to pay for that.
I understand though that it can get rather pricey if you pay a greens fee every round.
If I did that than yes, cost would be a concern.
Totally get it. If you’re able to get out a lot and don’t mind mostly playing the same course, your approach makes perfect sense. I can only get out once a week, and I like variety, so I prefer playing all over. Been out 16 times so far this year…played 16 different courses.
Played Oak Run Tuesday. I like this course…just wish there was more variety to the holes. Most of the holes have trees that thickly line the fairway, and the most challenging part of most holes is getting off the tee box. If you can do that, a bogey golfer can get a lot of pars, as the greens are very reachable, and sand/water don’t really come into play much. I shot 84 with trees causing me to take a penalty 3 times. I can’t think of another course that challenges you with trees like this one does.
Not a bad club house, but if you golf here, go to the willow brook clubhouse across the street…much nicer.
Oak Run was built back in the day when trees were considered a good thing for a course…they destroy greens and tees (no sunlight) and kill air transfer. You could eliminate 65% of trees at oak Run and open up the course for recovery shots to greens…plus sell the wood at profit!
If i lived in Lockport, i would play Willowbrook 9 times for every 1 at Oak Run.
Yeah agree. no comparison with Willowbrook vs Oak Run. Willowbrook has a better design to their holes. Oak Run pretty much 18 back and forths….boring!!!!!